Talk:Trust Master Reward
- 1 Farming Trust
- 2 Pilfer
- 3 Charlotte's Equip H Shield
- 4 Ronaldo's Drain Blade
- 5 DualCast.
- 6 Miracle Shoes
- 7 What happens when you fuse a 100% trust unit with a lesser unit
- 8 Rising Sun TM
- 9 Syldra's Protection rating
- 10 Can we please consider the weapon and attack type?
- 11 Rating Guidelines
- 12 Ring of the Lucii
- 13 Suggested Ratings Changes
- 14 Trust Mastery Reward Meta Page
- 15 Adding 'See also' Section with Reddit guide
Farming Trust[edit source]
Each unit needs 100.0% Trust to get a trust reward. There is a 10% chance of getting .1% at the end of any clear of a dungeon, vortex, or Exploration. Note that does not mean battle. Therefore it takes 10,000 clears to level trust to 100%. (100.0 increased by .1 point/clear but only at 10% of the time.)
By fusing a unit with your unit of the same name, you get 5% trust plus whatever trust they gained. That equates to knocking the trust down by 500 clears + trust gained. A Trust Moogle grants 10% trust, which equates to knocking the trust down by 1000 clears.
IMPORTANT: SAVE UNITS YOU WANT TO LEVEL TRUST WITH. For each unit you level trust in concurrently cuts time dramatically. The equation is: (10,000-((#ofunits-1)*500))/totalunits. For example:
- leveling 1 unit takes 10,000 clears (need 100%/unit)
- 2 units take 4750 clears (need 47.5%/unit)
- 3 units take 3000 clears (need 30%/unit)
- 4 units take 2,125 clears (need 21.2-21.3%/unit)
- 5 units takes 1,600 clears (need 16%/unit)
WHY? Because by getting trust with MULTIPLE units at once, once you fuse them, you gain 5% for each one fused plus the trust they earned. If you leveled 5 units together, then for example, each one was at 16% at the time of fusing, that is 16%*5=80%. Then add the 5% for each of the units beyond the first, and that is 100%. Arturo (talk)
In that case I would rate Drain even lower ;D At least Pilfer is unique and fills a spot in the pokedex while drain can be crafted with basic materials.
I don't know... Later on, skill enhancements can cost upwards of a million gil each. Pilfer and Coin Steal might hold some value, depending on how much can be stolen. Does anyone know the mechanics for this? Rift (talk) 06:38, 11 January 2017 (KOR)
I used pilfer on my low-level units extensively, mainly because I get tons of eldin for free. Basically go into an exploration with a strong friend and have the rest of the low level units pilfer. In my experience, Pilfer steals 90-100% of the gold gained from killing a monster, and thus, if you pilfer (or steal/mug with a unit that has coin steal) all monsters, you effectively double the gold output of a quest. I had to do this after I burned 600k gil during a 3-day gigantuar fusing spree... I estimate I've stolen about 1M gil since I've started playing, and since I have 600k in my hand right now, I'd be -400k if it weren't for gil stealing. —CodeHydro (talk) 13:57, 17 January 2017 (EST)
- Just wanted to give an update. I've been watching more closely the amount of gil stolen by pilfer and I've found that the first pilfer can steal anywhere from 70-100% of kill gold value. A second pilfer on the same target will steal the rest of the gold below 100% left over by the first pilfer (if any). Also I think it *may* be possible to steal more than 100% gold if you pilfer twice simutaneously like how you may Osmose more than the enemy's total mana if you do it in rapid enough succession though it's hard to pull off because pilfer is almost instant. —CodeHydro (talk) 11:05, 26 January 2017 (EST)
Charlotte's Equip H Shield[edit source]
Charlotte has not been released yet, but the rating of her TMR is way off at 1.0. It's at least much better than Firion's, currently rated 4.0. Many of the top-tier mages and healers cannot equip any shield at all, while being able to equip clothes or robes as body armor. Compare the difference for, say, a Black Robe or Mirage Vest to a Mythril Armor, against the difference between *nothing* and a Mythil Shield or Thunder Shield. Of course one could argue Firion's TMR is overrated, but it's better than Rizer's and Cyan's too. I think it should be around 4.5-5.5 (Garland's is 5.5 and is completely worthless without Cecil's TMR). --Mephy (talk) 15:27, 22 September 2016 (EDT)
- All of those three (H Armor, H Shield and L Sword) should be around 4.0 imo, although I don't think that H Armor is that desirable right now unless you are using Amarant and L Sword is literally only great if you have Excalibur, kind of hard to judge, but by itself and considering the available equipment in the game right now it's about as good as equip axe and bow, it might be worth to change their scores too, although L Sword should still be higher obviously considering that Excalibur exists. --Umuzu (talk) 19:43, 22 September 2016 (EDT)
- I second this, at the very least I think this is better than Roselia's TM--Elli27 (talk) 15:56, 22 September 2016 (EDT)
- Yup, I'm not sure why someone rated it so low too, I initially included only Dualcast on the page, as it would be the TM of most interest for next banner. Same case as Lightning's TM. It's not godly but it should be higher than a 5. Edit: Updated Equip H Shield to 5.5, as I believe that, like Garland's counterpart, It can be Situationally useful (Specially on GL with Stellar Shield being a MAG based shield)Andreyue (talk) 17:53, 22 September 2016 (GMT-3)
- I believe the 11 score for DW was supposed to be 11, just like the Unit rankings they are not from 0-10, but I am not really sure so leaving as it is. About Aurora Scarf, it isn't good honestly, it won't change targets after killing so you will end wasting time hitting the air and for bosses using abilities will do more damage anyway. The only real plus for bosses is probably with units like Lightning that hit multiple times during normal attack so you have more chances to chain with it, but then you are sacrificing doing actual damage with her to do that, kind of pointless. Definitely not better compared to TMs like Magi Staff considering is the staff with highest SPR in the game or Hero Rings that are not even TMs, it's the kind of accessory that you really wouldn't use normally, even Angel Earrings have an edge with the MP+20%. --Umuzu (talk) 19:43, 22 September 2016 (EDT)
- I farmed 2 Equip H Shields, and frankly I'm worried that I made a mistake by merging Charlottes together to do so rather than getting more. It is in many cases the most durability you can give a mage or a healer with a single ability slot. I know that most players build their teams as glass cannons, but recent ELT boss fights have been difficult or impossible to burst down in a single turn, making the ability to survive the enemy's biggest attacks at least as important as reducing the number of turns that you have to withstand that onslaught. Putting Force Shields on my otherwise easily killed mages and healers has trivialized the last few events for me, whereas my friends have been complaining that those fights are "too bs" to bother completing. At a minimum, Equip H Shield belongs tied with Amarant's +30% HP at a rating of 7.0, and I think both abilities should be rated higher than that. Iicrowii (talk)
- In the wake of its great usefulness in the present Ifrit Raid Event, I debated Equip H Shield in the FFBE Discord's Wiki channel. Search for posts by Crow!#4674 with "H Shield" to get to the relevant part of the conversation. While I didn't get a strong support for the 6.0 number I'm proposing to increase it to for now, I think the consensus was that it is better than 4.0 and probably better than the current 5.0 and 5.5's. (Though those abilities themselves may have been overrated.) --Iicrowii (talk) 19:21, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
Ronaldo's Drain Blade[edit source]
TL;DR : Drain Blade should be rated at least 6.0, it deals more damage than Coin Steal on units like Exdeath or Vaan.
I think this TMR is underrated here. Let's compare it with Raging Fist and Coin Steal.
If we take an unit with Enhancer, Stellar Shield and 2 Hero's Rings (let's say Vaan or Exdeath for example), we can come to a minimum of 200 in ATK and MAG. If we take a monster with 500 DEF/PSY and an unit with 200 ATK/MAG, here are the results :
Drain Blade (MP 7) : 140% hybrid damages + 80% physical damages with 30% HP drain = 2016 + 1152 = 3168 and 345 HP
Raging Fist (MP 3) : 120% physical damages with 25% ignore DEF = 2304
Coin Steal (MP 20) : 200% physical damages and steal Gil = 2880 and some Gils
With a Chizuru 300 ATK / 100 MAG : 5112 and 777 HP (Light Shell = 6048 without HP drain)
A WoL with 200 ATK / 100 MAG would deal 2412 damage and gain 345 HP (Bladeblitz = 2016 to all; Full Break = 2304, both costing 14 MP)
I'd give that TMR a good 6.0, like Coin Steal.
- A bit underrated yes, but not that much. Hybrid damage is awkward to itemize/buff/debuff for. I can't see Drain Blade being better than Rydia's Blizzaga (dem chains). And Thief's Coin Steal may be overrated here, especially considering the 20 MP cost. Looking at this ranking you wonder why Barrage and Coin Steal are so close... --Mephy (talk) 18:13, 26 September 2016 (EDT)
- Yes, Coin Steal could be a 4 I guess ^^ But I don't see how we can compare an AOE spell vs a Ph/Hyb ST ability. It's used on completely different units and in different cases. Exdeath wouldn't know what to do with a second Blizzaga, and by the time he waits for Ultima he can make good use of Drain Blade. We have to keep in mind it's a good way for a damage dealer to heal himself without the need of much SPR, and without losing a turn not doing damages. And by this time your healer can cure that bad poison/paralysis/whatever on another unit. Or cure just one ally and save MP.
- Raging Fist being a 5, I couldn't see Drain Blade below 5,5 ^^ Drizzt (FR Player) (talk) 12:31, 27 September 2016 (EDT)
- Raging Fist's remarkable MP cost should be taken into account. Rift (talk) 06:40, 11 January 2017 (KOR)
I think It should be at least same rating as Dualweild. And I think all the weapons are overrated. In Japanese ver many Boss/Event reward is better than those TMR weapons.
- I disagree. DW gets double the damage for no increase in mana cost. While DC does have the advantage of casting two different spells, it's really not comparable. Rift (talk) 06:43, 11 January 2017 (KOR)
Miracle Shoes[edit source]
The rating on these should be lowered, considering the BIS robe (Lordly Robe) provides two of the same buffs. It's also way more slot efficient to have it on a robe than on an accessory, unless you want to give it to someone that can't wear robes. Even then, it's hard to justify using Miracle Shoes over Hero's Ring or Muscle Belt when Focus/Cheer are readily available on even free story characters.
What happens when you fuse a 100% trust unit with a lesser unit[edit source]
What happens when you fuse a 100% trust unit with a lesser unit?
Do you get 100% on the lesser unit?
- 100% unit are considered having no more trust when merging, so they give 0% to any other character. E.G. you can't abuse chain units to gets lots of trust rewards, you need to do each one individually. In your case, a 100% zidane would give 0% when merged on another Zidane, it will also not list up as a "Trust Up" unit in the list when you choose it. You can see this easily with 1* units. Jawstrock (talk) 00:20, 6 October 2016 (EDT)
- Thank you. I'll just save those 5 zidane once they are maxed then (which is good for crit chaining). --Webmetz (talk) 01:22, 6 October 2016 (EDT) Then again, might as well combine them into one once I get enough for 1 dual wield, then hope for another zidane so I can grind that one. (Currently 31.2% there. ) --Webmetz (talk) 01:27, 6 October 2016 (EDT)
- You should probably try get at least 3 dual wield from your Zidanes, 5 is best so you are covered no matter your setup. Unless you really need a shields defense(or a shield with strong magic/atk gets released) you can always benefit from having double weapons on all your char. It's also very unlikely to be power creeped, unless they make a dual wield +(like Dual wield with +atk boost or something). I wish I had 5 Zidanes to trust up :/ Jawstrock (talk) 13:11, 22 October 2016 (EDT)
Rising Sun TM[edit source]
I think that Rising Sun should be up higher because of the existence of CoD. Considering that she has appeared on multiple banners and the fact that she's a 3 star base, a lot of people should have one by now. Rising Sun is almost a 50 atk upgrade over Lunar Pestle and over 70 atk upgrade for those who have missed the event. To put that into perspective, it really shouldn't belong in the same category as Sakurafubuki, which is barely even a 20 atk upgrade over existing options.
Personally I prioritize farming Rising Sun over a lot of the 7.5 rated TMs.
- I'm going to agree, but for a different reason. I firmly believe that ratings should be independent of the rater's character selection and other gear. Not everyone is going to have a CoD, and you can't base the value of the item on the assumption that they do. However, I do think that Rising Sun should be given a 7.5 because of the Killer passive. Rift (talk) 06:46, 11 January 2017 (KOR)
Syldra's Protection rating[edit source]
Why is Syldra's Protection's rating same as Dragon Killer and other killer materia, since it give 2 killer effect. I think it should be higher rating, maybe 6.5 Cheebc (talk) 03:58, 24 November 2016 (EST)
- Hm. That's a hard one. You'll never get value out of both passives at once, but it is a lot easier to grind one materia instead of two... Rift (talk) 06:50, 11 January 2017 (KOR)
Can we please consider the weapon and attack type?[edit source]
No top dps can currently utilize Fist or Axe weapons to their full potential. Yet Viking Axe and Champion's Belt are ranked considerably higher than for example Sakurafubuki, which is actually a lot more valuable at the moment because of Blade Mastery. Also, I believe that Lordly Robe and Magistral Crest should be in the same category as Omnirod, if not lower. Lastly, why is stuff like Coin Steal a 5.5, on the same level as Meteor? It's flaming garbage, this might be a good time for an update.
- I'm going to disagree here. You can't rate TMs on the assumption that everyone has every other TM and all of the characters. TMs on this page should be rated in a vacuum. If you want to make a "Meta Rating" page where you take only the toppest of top-tier strats, that would be appreciated though. Rift (talk) 06:54, 11 January 2017 (KOR)
- Magistral Crest is pretty amazing because it is an accessory. As for coin steal, it's usable by all characters while very few characters can use black magic level 7; moreover, meteor uses a lot more mana than most characters can handle... not to mention that many of the best mages can already do Meteor (or a more powerful spell like Ultima) innately. CodeHydro (talk) 13:52, 9 January 2017 (EST)
Rating Guidelines[edit source]
I drew up some rating guidelines based upon my understanding of mechanics and added them as a new section to the article. If anybody disagrees with the relative weights, please feel free to discuss them here. CodeHydro (talk) 12:57, 9 January 2017 (EST)
- I really did like your Guidelines, you should post them in the discussion again. FShain (talk) 05:21, 11 January 2017 (EST)
- Thanks. Okay:
Although the relative value of each stat (HP, ATK, DEF, etc.) is highly dependent on the context of the character chosen, here are a few rough equivalences when comparing items of the same type:
- HP+1% = ATK+1% = MAG+1% = DEF/SPR+2% = DEF+4%[a] = SPR+4% = MP+2%
- ATK/MAG+1% = ATK+1% = MAG+1% (most units can only use ATK or MAG, so having both isn't usually better than just one)
- single element resistance +15% = all element resistance +2% = HP+1%
- [a]The reason why HP has four times the weight of DEF is because damage mitigation is split between DEF and SPR and because, generally speaking, HP comes almost exclusively from base stats while roughly half of a unit's DEF is from equipment. ATK/MAG have the same weight as HP because, although much of a unit's ATK/MAG is from equipment, their effect is squared (See also: Mechanics).
When comparing percentage and integer increases, we will assume the following base stats:[b]
4000 HP, 150 ATK, 150 MAG, 150 DEF, 150 SPR, 150 MP
- [b]While this doesn't necessarily represent all characters, round numbers do make math easier.
- HP+40 = HP+1%
- ATK+15 = ATK+10%
Note that the above equivalences do not necessarily apply when comparing items of different types. For example, while +40 DEF is amazing for accessories, it's rather mediocre for armor.
Ring of the Lucii[edit source]
This TMR seems vastly underrated. For access to Alterna alone (which is almost twice as powerful as the next most powerful Black Magic, Ultima), it deserves to be higher than anything but Genji Glove/Dual Wield/Dual Cast. --Rand (talk) 19:04, 9 January 2017 (EST)
- Actually, Alterna is like a dual-casted meteor, so it may actually be better than dualcast since this actually can improve upon the best mages: Exdeath/Dark Fina, who do not gain much from dualcast since they already have dual black magic. Also the Holy effect with 25% negate damage is worth a +33.3% HP, which is huge... I can't even calculate the value of the countering with damage and MP healing. Alterna is almost too expensive, but then again you don't have to use it if you don't want to... but having the option to deal 13.6x to all enemies when dualcasted is definitely nice. I'd rate it a 10.5 actually. CodeHydro (talk) 22:37, 9 January 2017 (EST)
- I agree that it's probably under-rated. While it's really difficult for any character to make full use of all of its abilities, each ability is incredibly valuable already. I don't know if I'd rate it that close to a Dual Wield, though. Rift (talk) 06:46, 11 January 2017 (KOR)
- I think that Dualcast is incredibly valuable mostly for white mages - it allows Refia to Full Raise and Curaga on the same turn for instance. Which I would argue is reason for marking it up a notch - but as long as the TMRs are tremendously sparse at the top, it doesn't matter much as long as Genji/Dualwield, Dualcast and RotL are top rated (They don't really compete with one another save Genji = Dualwield+). It might be of some additional use to see all 4 at 10+ (and good point RE Holy).
- (Also, too much emphasis seems to be placed on "sustainability", here and elsewhere. We haven't seen any really drawn out battles since that miserable "Cave of the Four Unkillable Giants". And we do have osmose, and elixers, and Bartz's suicide-full-restore, among other MP refillers.) --Rand (talk) 20:54, 10 January 2017 (EST)
- (And who on earth brings a glass cannon to a grindfest? Mages are there to fire off nukes, and Alterna is an H-Bomb.) --Rand (talk) 21:04, 10 January 2017 (EST)
- (I also agree on Rand's argument about sustainability. It's easy to get a mage to 400+ MP, while physical attackers usually have much less MP especially in typical DPS setups), and Alterna in the current meta has a 6.8X effective multiplier which is drastically higher than the typical 3X - 4X multipliers of physical attackers. On top of that, a mage that can dual-wield 2 rods actually has MAG stat of the 2 rods combined, whereas for physical attackers the actual ATK value used for each attack is only based on 1 weapon at a time instead of what shows up on the unit's profile). This helps the mage create higher effective damage per turn. Combination of the above could easily lead to fewer turns needed to finish a battle. Adding in the fact that MP regeneration is becoming easier and easier these days, I just don't see sustainability being a problem big enough to bring down the value of a magic ability just on its high MP consumption alone. In fact, with a 700 - 800 MAG mage that has Alterna, I could defeat almost all the bosses in 1 - 3 turns so far even without chaining in the current meta. As a finishing hit on a proper chain, the chain provides another 4X multiplier to the attack which should allow us to finish even many of the future bosses in a few turns. For those rare cases where we do need many turns to defeat a boss despite all of the above, even just including Bartz into the team and having him cast Life Giver on the mage every 3 turns would already solve the MP issue (and even that is only needed after Osmose has drained out all of the boss' MP). 2 other units in the team can be used to form chains, and we still have 1 slot for a tank/support, 1 slot for a healer, and another slot for yet another attacker (though at least 1 unit needs to have raise or full raise equivalent). On top of that, MP auto-refresh (whether innate or via equipment), abilities such as Noctis' Cover and Ling's Invigorating Dance, or an occasional use of Elixir (which is already a dime a dozen these days) are more than enough to address the MP needs of most battles even without Life Giver. If GL follows a similar path as JP, MP recovery would become even easier in the future.) -Paul (talk) 20:20, 19 February 2017 (PST)
- Looks like people here generally agree that the rating of Ring of the Lucii should be increased. I saw similar comments on Redit too. Could someone with write access to the Trust Master Reward page make an adjustment for us? A rating around 10.0/10.5 sounds good to me -Paul (talk) 19:54, 19 February 2017 (PST)
Suggested Ratings Changes[edit source]
- Raging Fist (lower) - it comes with Ifrit, and virtually every useful physical attacker already has a better attack.
- Comet (lower) - I can see a situational use for a very drawn out battle, but it's not a great spell.
- Thund/Bliz/Firaga (higher) - these are very powerful spells, and critical for element chaining. Powerful magic attackers may be missing one or more (Dark Fina is the most obvious example at the moment [given that only two 6* black mages have been released], but also Rydia, Terra, Celes etc.)
- Fira/Stonra (higher) - definitely worth having, Fira having been super useful for the Halloween event, for instance.
- Raging Fist's remarkably low MP cost should be taken into account, though. For Comet, I don't know, can you stack Comets with multiple characters or only one character? Because I can see it being valuable if you have say, a team of mages dualcasting it and stacking damage off each other's comets. But if it's a solo thing then I'm going to agree with you that it should be lower. Rift (talk) 07:02, 11 January 2017 (KOR)
I'd give some TMRs a better rating if they are by far the best option available of certain type/slot. Eg. hats shouldn't be directly compared to armors bc of this.
Eg. Items: Apron Dress from 8.0 up to 8.5, it has +30% weapon damage and one of the best armors to have.
Rainbow Robe is by far the best armor in the game, at least 9.0 from 8.0.
Black Cowl from 7.0 to 7.5, for being the best possible hat for physical dmg unit.
Cat Hat from 6.0 to 7.0, for being the best possible hat for mage.
Mateus's Malice from 8.0 to 8.5, for being the best rod and best item to boost MAG
Soul of Thamasa to 10.0, as it frees an ability slot for dual wield.
Then passives: Dark Knight's Soul, Blade Mastery, Dark Bond, Letters and Arms, all from 8.0 to 9.0 - +50% damage in total is pretty sick, considering how much more those boost compared to other options.
Hill Digger from 7.0 to 7.2 - +30% HP is at 7.0, this should be at 7.2 bc it gives +30%HP and +10% Attack
Innocence from 6.5 to 7.0 - Some items at 7.0 give similiar boost.
Anyway great work all and all! Thanks for sorting these ranking calculations out! It helped me to make some decisions, so I wanted to give my 2 cents too.
Trust Mastery Reward Meta Page[edit source]
Currently the TMR page only takes into account the relative power of the one TMR. This is perfect for people who may be looking to cash in a pile of Trust Moogles for a single reward, but not necessarily the most useful for the macro whales looking to min/max their team of 5 Noctii. Should there be a page, or a section of the current page, detailing current top-tier meta TMRs? And how would such a page be organized?
- Should it list TMRs the same as the current page, but with rating adjusted by synergies with current strategies? (e.g. Evade is ranked higher than the main page due to Phys Dodge stacking, Growth Egg is ranked lower because only lvl 100 characters exist in top metas)
- Should it list strategies by character? (e.g. Lightning Physical Dodge, Lightning Highest Atk)
- Should it list strategies by DPS? (e.g. Join the 900+ Atk Club, Join the 800+ Mag Club)
- Should it list strategies by PVP? (e.g. Tank Hope DW Barrage Stall, Edgar Chaining DPS)
Adding 'See also' Section with Reddit guide[edit source]
There is a pretty good guide out there that might fit well on this page: Reddit: Trust Master Rewards Guide - What? Where? How? --TheDennista (talk) 13:52, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
To answer the question "What is a TMR" more quickly for new players I suggest someone with edit rights add the following to the first paragraph:
"These rewards are in the form of equippable items and abilities that can be used with any character."